Precious Jesus

"Afresh, precious, precious Jesus, I resign this body to You, for doing or suffering, for living or dying. Will You accept it? Will You use me for Your glory more than heretofore, that You may have some little return for all the benefits You have done to me? Oh, do grant this request; my heart longs for it, my spirit pleads for it; and "if You will, You can." You know the hot temptation of which I am the subject. Bring Your glory out of it, and keep me from the evil, and it shall be well." - Ruth Bryan

Thursday, January 30, 2014

Regarding Inquity in the heart

To hold onto sin in the mind, but not act on it is just as sinful as if one were to act out what is in the thought life. This is a teaching that is shunned, for the most part, today. I recently posted an article from Nick Roen, from Desiring God. In this article, Nick states God did not remove his desire for the same sex from him. This is nothing more than an excuse to continue on in his sinful, lustful ways.

There are a couple of verses that come to mind concerning the thought life, starting with Psalm 66:18, 'If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear'. Charles Spurgeon rightly states this, "If, having seen it to be there, I continue to gaze upon it without aversion; if I cherish it, have a side glance of love towards it, excuse it, and palliate it; “The Lord will not hear me.” How can he? Can I desire him to connive at my sin, and accept me while I willfully, cling to any evil way? Nothing hinders prayer like iniquity harbored in the breast; as with Cain, so with us, sin lieth at the door, and blocks the passage. If thou listen to the devil, God will not listen to thee. If thou refusest to hear God's commands, he will surely refuse to hear thy prayers. An imperfect petition God will hear for Christ's sake, but not one which is willfully mis-written by a traitor's hand. For God to accept our devotions, while we are delighting in sin, would be to make himself the God of hypocrites, which is a fitter name for Satan than for the Holy One of Israel."

  The Hebrew for 'heart' is lêb; Brown-Driver- Briggs Hebrew Definitions defines it as 'inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding'. To 'regard' is 'to consider, look on, enjoy'. This is a willful act of entertaining sin in the inner man; something like pornography would feed sin in the thought life. Having lustful, sinful thoughts and entertaining those thoughts is sin, it also keeps God from hearing the prayers of all who do this.

It's worth looking into commentary from Albert Barnes as well, "literally, “If I have seen iniquity in my heart.” That is, If I have indulged in a purpose of iniquity; if I have had a wicked end in view; if I have not been willing to forsake all sin; if I have cherished a purpose of pollution or wrong. The meaning is not literally, If I have “seen” any iniquity in my heart - for no one can look into his own heart, and not see that it is defiled by sin; but, If I have cherished it in my soul; if I have gloated over past sins; if I am purposing to commit sin again; if I am not willing to abandon all sin, and to be holy."
'The Lord will not hear me' - "That is, He will not regard and answer my prayer. The idea is, that in order that prayer may be heard, there must be a purpose to forsake all forms of sin. This is a great and most important principle in regard to prayer. If there is still the love of evil in his heart; if he has some cherished purpose of iniquity which he is not willing to abandon; if there is any one sin, however small or unimportant it may seem to be, which he is not willing to forsake, he cannot hope that God will hear his prayer; he may be assured that he will not. All prayer, to be acceptable to God, must be connected with a purpose to forsake all sin."   Albert Barnes

To cherish sin in the thought life is to keep yourself from being heard in prayer. The Bible does not command sinners to make excuses for sin, as Isaiah 55:7 states, " let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts." This is a call to repentance, as Matthew Henry points out...
"There are two things involved in repentance: - [1.] It is to turn from sin; it is to forsake it. It is to leave it, and to leave it with loathing and abhorrence, never to return to it again. The wicked must forsake his way, his evil way, as we would forsake a false way that will never bring us to the happiness we aim at, and a dangerous way, that leads to destruction. Let him not take one step more in that way. Nay, there must be not only a change of the way, but a change of the mind; the unrighteous must forsake his thoughts. Repentance, if it be true, strikes at the root, and washes the heart from wickedness. We must alter our judgments concerning persons and things, dislodge the corrupt imaginations and quit the vain pretences under which an unsanctified heart shelters itself. Note, It is not enough to break off from evil practices, but we must enter a caveat against evil thoughts. Yet this is not all: [2.] To repent is to return to the Lord; to return to him as our God, our sovereign Lord, against whom we have rebelled, and to whom we are concerned to reconcile ourselves; it is to return to the Lord as the fountain of life and living waters, which we had forsaken for broken cisterns."

The word of God teaches us that we cannot cherish sin in our hearts, it must be forsaken and NOT excused. How horrifying that some would blame God for their own lustful thoughts!! The prophet Jeremiah had a warning for the nation Israel; notice the words of Jeremiah, "O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thine evil thoughts lodge within thee?" Jeremiah 4:14
Sin is birthed in the thought life, in the inner man. It should be struck down right where it is birthed from, where it's first formed. No one says it better than John Gill concerning this text in Jeremiah, " These are the words of the prophet, or of God by the prophet, showing the cause of all their ruin and destruction, the wickedness of their hearts; and they are expressed in such form and language, as to be accommodated to the case of any unregenerate sinner: every man's heart is wicked, desperately wicked, even wickedness itself; everything in it is wicked; the thoughts, and the imagination of the thoughts of the heart, the mind, the understanding, the will, the conscience, and the affections; and everything that is wicked is in that: it is the womb in which all sin is conceived; the shop and forge in which it is wrought; it is the habitation of every unclean lust; the seeds and principles of all sin are in it; it is the fountain spring and source of all evil; of all evil thoughts, words, and actions; all come out of it, and have their rise in it: and this wickedness is of a defiling nature, and has left a pollution on it; and what comes out of it defiles the man, that he stands in need of washing; which cannot be done to purpose by ceremonial ablutions and sacrifices, by moral acts of righteousness, by humiliation and tears, nor by submission to Gospel ordinances; nor indeed is this to be done by man at all, any other way than by faith dealing with the blood of Christ, by which only the heart is purified: for this is God's work, as appears from his promises to cleanse his people from all sins; from their prayers to him, to create in them clean hearts, to wash them thoroughly from their iniquity, and cleanse them from their sin; from the sanctifying grace of the Spirit, and the washing of regeneration ascribed to him; and from the end and efficacy of the bloodshed of Christ, to cleanse from sin, and purge the conscience from dead works; and the design of such exhortations as these is to convince men of the wickedness and pollution of their hearts, of the necessity of being washed from it, and of their own inability to do it of themselves; and to lead them to the fountain of Christ's blood, to wash in for sin and for uncleanness."

 Don't think the New Testament doesn't deal with the thought life, for Christ Himself teaches on it in Matthew 5:28; 15:19 and Mark 7:21. There is absolutely NO excuse for harboring sin in the thought life; all sin must be confessed and forsaken. There is no scriptural support for excusing sin in the heart. May God's word be honored, exalted, and obeyed among His people.

54 comments:

Darrel said...

The deceitfulness of sin knows no bounds and ever seeks to bring us under it's control. There was a time when sin was exceeding repugnant, but now maybe not so much. Perhaps we could dabble in it just a little, it won't really hurt us and we can control how far we go, not too far, just enough to have a small pleasure. If such be our attitude we are in great danger. The wicked one still seeks to devour us and any method that gets the job done is ok. What a horrible thing it is to watch other believers excuse their sin, even to a small degree. And even worse when we are caught red-handed doing the same.

Thanks be to God that He still exposes our own sins and takes us to the Lord Jesus for cleansing and forgiveness. May we treat even the smallest of sins with great disgust and be ever watchful of the traps set for us.

lyn said...

Amen Darrel; sin is seldom identified in the visible church anymore. There is little mention of mortifying sin, it's easier just to excuse it.
We should pray daily, -Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts - Psalm 139:23

jamsco said...

I would be careful to not judge without full knowledge. What sin do think is being excused in the Desiring God article?

I don't see it, myself.

jamsco said...

And let me add that it looks like you've done your research and I think I agree with all of what you've written in the post, except the first paragraph.

lyn said...

Jamsco

If you go back and read the original post - http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2013/12/is-lusting-after-same-sex-sinful-nick.html - you will see what sin I am referring to.

Nick Roen has stated God has not taken his desire for same sex attraction from him - so essentially he's blaming God for his sin and him cleaving to it. We WILL be held accountable for sinful thoughts, a study of Matthew 15:19 reveals such, "For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings". Notice Christ includes 'evil thoughts', and goes on to say in the next verse these things 'defile' a man, they render one unclean, unfit for heaven.
Isaiah 55:7 and Matthew 5:28 are more verses that deal with sinful thoughts. Lust for sex stems from the heart, which is what we are taught in Romans 1:27,'and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another'.
Christ sets those He saves free from sins' bondage {John 8:36}.

I am not 'judging', I am rightly dividing and pointing to a very dangerous and erroneous teaching from Roen. Do NOT think for a moment that you can cleave to sin in your heart and God will not take note of it. Do not forget, God searches the heart, He will bring to light every sin that is cleaved to, cherished, and not confessed and forsaken. Study His word, follow Christ, and do NOT follow men! This is a common trend today, following celebrity pastors like Piper and others; we are not called to follow men. We are called to follow Jesus Christ and to search His word for ourselves, being good Bereans. Americans are too lazy to study God's word, they foolishly believe someone who labels himself as 'pastor' or 'christian' is incapable of teaching error - this is very foolish and very dangerous thinking.


I hope that clears up your confusion Jamsco.

jamsco said...

I tried to post this comment before, but I'm afraid it didn't work because I didn't put in the right anti-robot code. If it went through and you hadn't seen it or decided not to approve it, my apologies for the duplicate.

I had already read the original post, but I'm commenting on this post because it is more recent.

Let me try to explain what I'm thinking. I'm a married man. I have what I would call OSA - opposite sex attraction, by which I mean I'm a heterosexual. I'm attracted to women. That in and of itself is not sinful. But if I ever have "evil thoughts" (lustful thoughts about women who are not my wife), then I'm sinning.

Nick says he has SSA - he's attracted to men. Again, this isn't sinful in an of itself, but if he has lustful thoughts about men, then this would be sinful. He is not excusing that. He agrees with you that that would be sinful.

Rather, he is excusing (or saying it's not sinful to have) a predisposition to do a certain kind of sin. Everyone has different kinds of sins that they have a predisposition to do.

By the way, John Piper explicitly ask that people test his words biblically. He does not want people to follow him.

Can you tell me - what do you want Nick to do, or not do?

lyn said...

Jamsco,
Here's what I am trying to bring out about homosexuality - it is birthed from lust. Nick's lusting in his mind is NOT based on some simple admiring. If Nick looks at another man and is attracted to him in his mind, he is sinning - that IS an evil thought! As a former lesbian, I KNOW how the mind of the homosexual works! It isn't just a casual attraction that he's dealing with, it is a desire to have that person in a sexual way! That's what Nick means when he says he's 'attracted to men'. Homosexuality is always about lust, which is why I gave you the text in Romans 1:27 ' and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another'. To use the word 'attraction' is to cover up what really lies in Rick's heart. Do you honestly think it isn't sinful to be attracted to the same sex? Do you really think God is okay with that?

What we have is man trying to determine what a sinful thought is and isn't. Since we know the Bible condemns homosexuality, and that God calls it an 'abomination', how can anybody not see the sin of desiring the same sex in your thought life? This indeed is wicked Jamsco. God does condemn wicked thoughts, which would include same sex thoughts. How do we know this? Because His word calls homosexuality sinful. Maybe this will help, this is commentary on Matthew 15:19 from John Gill concerning 'evil thoughts' -

The thoughts of sin are evil, are to be hated, forsaken, and for which men are accountable to God. All wicked imaginations, carnal reasonings, lustful desires, and malicious contrivances, are here included.

Don't let worldly terminology fool you, when a homosexual says he has same sex attraction, what he's really saying is that he lusts for the same sex in his heart. Remember, we must always use biblical terminology in dealing with sin, otherwise, confusion sets in and sin is no longer sin is it?

lyn said...

Jamsco,
I also want to remind you about the human heart, 'the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?' from Jeremiah 17:9. Deceitful means 'fraudulent, crooked, polluted'. Desperately wicked means 'incurable, sick'. Also, take note of Genesis 6:5 'Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.'
The heart will deceive us, which is why we simply cannot claim 'attraction' as being innocent and sinless. Our hearts are vile and polluted by sin; when God 're-births' a sinner, He gives us a 'heart of flesh' {see Ezekiel 36:26-27}. We then hate the things we once loved; we certainly do NOT lust after the sin that Christ freed us from! Nick Roen proves God has not regenerated him, for he still longs for and lusts after men. Very telling...

The true born- from-above believer will put on the full armor {Eph. 6} and battle against sin, which comes at us through our own flesh, the world and the Devil.

jamsco said...

1. That's helpful. I think we're in more agreement than I originally thought.

Because if you're correct that when he "says he has same sex attraction, what he's really saying is that he lusts for the same sex in his heart," then yes, I agree that that would be sinful.

But I take him at his word when he says that he differentiates between the two and considers one to be sinful and the other not. It sounds like you are saying that he is lying or trying to trick the reader. Correct?

2. Can you tell me, do you agree with this paragraph from the DG article that you linked to? If you don't agree, which parts?

Let’s say that I experience an attraction to another man.... At this point, my attraction falls into the category of temptation, and I can do one of two things. I can fight the desire in the same manner that anyone who is tempted with pride, jealousy, or fear would, and kill it before I sin. Or I can follow the desire into lust of the mind and eventually the flesh, which is a volitional sin.

It seems like there is biblical terminology in that paragraph.

3. You ask, " Do you honestly think it isn't sinful to be attracted to the same sex?" I honestly think that that is no more sinful than it is for me to be attracted to any woman who isn't my wife. But if I pursue that attraction into lust, then it becomes sinful.

lyn said...

Jamsco,

Remember, homosexuality, in all form, is birthed out of lust. There is NO harmless attraction, the Bible clearly teaches so. Note that Nick says God did NOT take this 'attraction' from him; if it were harmless, then why is he blaming God for not taking it from him?
You cannot take him at his word, for he is using deceitful, worldly terminology to mask over sin. Take God at His word and ponder the verses I gave you concerning the 'heart'- which means the mind, thought life, will, understanding - the inner man.

As for question 2, notice the wording he uses, 'experience' 'attraction' - this is how he masks sin.
He does outline how we are to battle temptation, however, he's already stated in his article that he has same sex attraction; so how does one battle sin and yet be overcome by the same besetting sin? Let's go back to the word of God. Christ states if the Son has set you free, you are free indeed {John 8:36} Why would Nick still wrestle with lusting over men if God had freed him? It doesn't add up. Remember Isaiah 55:7 as well,"Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts". To forsake means to turn away from; Nick's admittance of lust in his thoughts means he hasn't turned away from it. He's hiding behind lust and trying to justify it by going through all kinds of hoops.

Nick has admitted God has not taken his same sex attraction from him, so he still lusts for men. He is NOT battling against this lust because he has admitted to having it; it's ongoing you see, it's ever-present in his mind. He knows it's wrong, that's why he blames God for not taking it from him. Then, he gives a 'scenario', a 'what if' type of situation. We all battle evil in our thought life, the difference is that the temptation should NOT linger there as it does in Nick's case. For example, if I see someone who is dressed in a provocative manner, I immediately must turn my thoughts and my eyes from such a sight. That is what battling sin looks like.

Nick forgets what God says in His word concerning temptation,"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13
This verse shows that God does indeed provide a way out of temptation, so for Nick to say God has NOT removed his lust from him is not true. He lusts because he feeds his lust, in his thought life.
to be continued....

lyn said...

So, how do you define attraction? Remember how deceitful your heart is Jamsco. Also remember Christ's words from Matthew 5:28,"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Your definition of 'attraction' may be entirely different than God's. Here we see sin is committed in the thought life isn't it? If a man looks at a woman with any kind of sexual thought, he is guilty as if he actually followed through. Can you look at a woman at a glance and simply think she's attractive? I suppose you can, but, the longer you look, the more the mind will wander into forbidden territory.

As for Nick's 'attraction', here is the key thing for you to remember - homosexuals do NOT look at the same sex with simple admiration - they look with lust. To even be attracted to the same sex in your mind is disgusting. God states that men with men is an abomination{Lev. 18:22}, which means 'abhorrence'. Webster's 1828 edition dictionary defines abhorrence as 'Extreme hatred, detestation, great aversion.' God not only detests the act of homosexuality, the mere thought of it is repulsive to Him. The battle always lies in the mind.

Please be careful when looking at other women Jamsco, remember what we battle- "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world." 1 John 2:16

jamsco said...

Well again Lyn, I agree with much of what you say here - I just don't think it applies to what Nick is saying.

1. Thanks for the warning that I be careful. I (along with almost all men) need this reminder.

2. You ask how I define attraction. How about this for an example: Let's say A heterosexual man is reading his email and an advertisement comes up with a picture of a woman on it. It takes a man about a tenth of a second to think "She's pretty". That's "attraction". And then the man has a choice. He can focus on her and dwell on her. That's "Lust". Or he can choose to immediately refresh the page or close the window so the image of the lady is no longer there. That's what God wants us to do.

So my question for you is - Do you agree with my definition of Attraction and Lust? Is the Attraction as described here sinful?

Now let's change it to a man with Same Sex Attraction and he's on email and he sees a picture of a man come up. He thinks "He's handsome". Again, that's attraction. And again he can choose to dwell on it or he can choose to turn off the image.

Here's my next question: Is "Attraction" in this situation sinful? If he quickly refreshes the page, did he sin?

I think this attraction is not sinful, because it's not a choice he made. I think that if he tries to focus on something else, he did not sin.

3. You say, "You cannot take him at his word, for he is using deceitful, worldly terminology to mask over sin." I think this is too harsh in your judgment. You haven't shown yet that he is being deceitful.

4. You say, "Why would Nick still wrestle with lusting over men if God had freed him?" Are you saying that any person who wrestles with attraction to anyone who they aren't married aren't saved? It sounds like that's what you're saying. Or is it only people who wrestle with attraction to the same gender? If so, why do you say that?

Remember that God has bad things to say about the heterosexual luster as well as the homosexual luster.

lyn said...

Jamsco,

I agree we can look at others and think they are attractive in their outward appearance.
Now, concerning homosexual attaction- again, remember what Nick has already confessed. He admits he has lust- which he defines as same sex attraction. Is it okay for homosexuals to say another individual is attractive? Sure! BUT, that's NOT what he's referring to Jamsco. Like I've repeatedly said, you have to keep in mind his confession of lust. If God detests the act of same sex sin, He also detests the thought of it. When Nick says you can be attracted to someone, what does that mean? Does it mean, like you say, you see someone as attractive? To be attracted to someone is very tricky wording. Let me use a definition from Webster's 1828 dictionary- I like this version because it hasn't been tampered with by man - Drawn towards; invited; allured; engaged. To see someone as attractive is NOT the same as being attracted to them- do you see the difference? In order to be attracted to someone, you have to dwell upon them longer than just a casual glance. What would cause one to be drawn towards another? What would cause them to be allured by another? LUST! Do you see the connection?

Does this make it clearer to you? Always be leary of how things are worded, don't take too much for granted and at face value. The meaning of most of the English language has been lost over time, with little to no thought given to the definition of words. Nick's wording and how he frames his lust is done in a way that it makes it seem harmless, innocent. Underneath his admittance of lusting {which is what attraction is called biblically} beats a heart that desires sex with men...it really is that simple.

jamsco said...

It sounds like you are suggesting that I should interpret a man's words using a definition from a dictionary that is nearly two hundred years old. Please don't do that with my words. I don't know what these words meant two hundred years ago.

Can you show my where he has confessed to lust? I've only seen where he confesses to being attracted - like in the person who sees the image on the screen and then turns it off.

I am trying to not take anything for grated.

He isn't framing his attraction as harmless or innocent. He wishes he didn't have that attraction.

Please stop saying that he has confessed to lusting unless you can show that he has actually confessed to it and/or that he thinks that lusting not sinful. I ask you to show some kind of proof that when he says attraction he means lusting.

lyn said...

I am not suggesting anything, I am suggesting to you to inform yourself. What do you think it means to say you are attracted to someone?
Once more, let me show you what homosexuality is based on. Go to Romans 1:27, " and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

homosexuals abandon the 'natural function'; in other words, what was instilled in them at birth. Natural means 'inborn'. God instilled the natural way in all of us from birth, they forsake that for what is unnatural, or against nature. They lust after the same sex. The Bible NEVER refers to homosexuality as an 'attraction'. It is birthed in the heart, it is a forbidden lust that is formed from within. Whether it be pondered in the mind or acted out in the flesh - it is wickedness and depravity at its finest. Homosexuality only comes in one form ----lust.

to 'burn' means 'inflame deeply'; there is such intensity in their sexual lust for each other.
'In their desire' means 'a longing, craving for'. Roen cleverly substitutes what the Bible calls lust by calling his lust an attraction. May none of us make that same sinful mistake.

You say, "He wishes he didn't have that attraction." That is a LIE!! He holds onto it because his heart is wicked! I have repeatedly shown you from God's word that Christ frees us from sins' bondage, I am proof of that. Yet, you insist this man wishes he didn't have that attraction. What does that tell you? He has NOT been born again, that's what. If God had given him a new heart, he would not be lusting after men! I refuse to use worldly terminology to describe his lust. He is making excuses for his continual lust.
Read 1 John 3:9, what does it say? "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Continually thinking about lust in the mind IS practicing sin; it's ongoing.

There would be no ongoing struggle with lust IF Nick were born again, because the Holy Spirit gives power over sin, and the heart has been renewed by Him. That sin, even in the early stages, would be repulsive to Nick. However, he continues to look at men and desire them. Why? Because his heart is NOT right with God, that's why. I encourage you to read A.W. Pink's writing on the doctrine of regeneration at http://pbministries.org/books/pink/Regeneration/index.htm

I also recommend John Owen's work entitled 'overcoming sin and temptation' available at http://www.johnowen.org/media/OvercomingSinAndTemptation.pdf

Unfortunately, in our day shallow preaching has led to a shallow understanding of sin.

Darrel said...

It seems jamsco is a classic example of one trying to excuse sin rather than mortify it or put it to death. Such a thing is called taking up our own cross daily. Instead of rationalizing, a good old fashioned dose of dying to our lusts would be in order, but that is such an unpopular thing to even think in today's version of Christianity.

lyn said...

Darrel,

Jamsco keeps referring to lust as an 'attraction'; this is his stumbling block. I fear this sin may be harbored in his own heart, that's why he is vehemently defending Nick Roen's forbidden lust. He sees it as a harmless 'attraction', but God sees it as a sinful desire that is fed by continually feeding it in the heart.
There will be multitudes who will be in for a very rude awakening if they neglect their wicked thoughts, and if they define what wickedness is according to their own mind. It is so sad to see such rejection of truth and such lengths taken to gloss over wickedness. Oh for a Spurgeon, or Edwards, or Apostle Paul to be raised up in our day to speak true truth, and NOT this watered-down ear-tickling garbage that passes itself off as 'Christian'. We are in a horrific time of spiritual darkness and a famine of truth...and most cannot even see it.

jamsco said...

Lyn and Darrel,

There are those who are predisposed to gossip, who do not gossip.
There are those who are predisposed to steal, who do not steal.
There are those who are predisposed to judge too quickly, who do not sinfully judge.
There are those who are predisposed to homosexuality, who do not give in to it.

You have shown me many verses about sin, but you have not shown that being predisposed to homosexuality is sin. If you are going to condemn a man, and with him a ministry, then the burden of proof is on you.

You have not shown that Romans 1:27 applies to all who are predisposed to homosexuality.

You are calling a man a liar and giving no evidence besides your own experience.

Darrel, you could show that I am trying to excuse a sin, if you could in any way show that what Nick is saying is sinful. But you haven't.

And I imagine that is is possible that Nick has experienced more of "a good old fashioned dose of dying to lusts" than you or I have. It's possible, but I don't know. Neither do you.

lyn said...

jamsco,

Where is your scriptural support that anyone is 'predisposed' to certain sins? What would incline one to a certain sin? This is what you seem to not understand...all sin is a choice. It is formed in the heart, chosen by the sinner, and acted upon in both the thought life and in actions.
I have given multiple verses from God's word that prove sin is formed in the heart, that the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, and that wicked thoughts are sin. Yet, you hold fast to your opinion.
You have been shown that Nick Roen has confessed his lust for men, and blames God for not taking it - you overlook this confession and make excuses. This is the pattern for all who refuse to accept the truth of the word of the Lord. God help you if you think lusting in your mind is acceptable.

Then you make this absolutely off the wall statement, "You have not shown that Romans 1:27 applies to all who are predisposed to homosexuality." There is NO such thing as 'predisposed' when it comes to sin. ALL sin is chosen, whether it be homosexuality or murder, gossip, whatever.
May God open your understanding to His truth, starting with these verses from James 1:13-14, "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust." Do notice enticement comes from our OWN LUST, thus saith the Lord. It has not one thing to do with any type of 'predisposed' garbage; you are doing the SAME thing Nick Roen is doing; you are using worldly terminology, you are excusing sin and seeking to soften the blow by stating being attracted to someone is okay, but the Bible proves you wrong. Lust is what it's call Jamsco; lust is what the Bible defines you concerning women other than your wife, and Nick's lusting after men. Lust is a sin Jamsco and IF this is YOUR pet sin, and if you continue on in it...it will cost you dearly. Remember the verse I have given repeatedly in this exchange, "Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7
Perhaps you cannot see Nick's sin of lust because it is your sin as well?


lyn said...

Jamsco

I encourage you to listen to the sermon I posted by David Dykstra entitled 'the covenant with the eye'.
I also remind you that comments that continue to seek to gloss over and defend/redefine sin will not be published. Also, comments that are based on opinion w/o scriptural support will not be published.

Darrel said...

Being "predisposed" to do anything is the same as saying that you were born that way, your genes are lined up so as to make it impossible for you to do anything other than whatever your "predisposition" is. That is one of the oldest lies of the wicked one. "God created me this way, therefore He cannot judge me for acting out on my "predisposition". But the Scriptures say otherwise as you very well know and yet still continue to try and skate by the real issue (that of your own lust that you refuse to let go of) by any flimsy excuse you can muster. Your are not fooling the Holy Spirit, Jamsco, and I don't buy into your nonsense either. If you really knew that the salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ delivers you from the power of sin-Rom. 6:14 & Col. 1:13, 2:11-we would not being having this conversation. Instead, you would direct your efforts to Nick Roen who is in desperate need of the deliverance afforded every believer. For him to dare to blame God for not delivering him from the power of the sin that so easily besets him is a blasphemous insult to the Trinity and has it's root in the pit of hell. Nick should examine himself to see whether he is in the faith or not, his statement of non-deliverance is the best indication that he does not know what repentance is and therefore does know of saving grace either.

lyn said...

Very well said Darrel....thank you brother. I pray God will bring Jamsco under conviction, and work repentance in his heart. Brokenness over sin is a must; all sin must be confessed and forsaken. God help the man who makes excuses for his sin.

jamsco said...

1. Darrel, I do not excuse the sin of lust (in myself or anyone). It is inexcusable. I agree that the sin of lust costs people dearly. But please notice that there is no logical step from “He disagrees with me about what lust is” to “He must have a problem with lust that he ‘refuses to let go of’”

2. Lyn, I was wondering when you would bring up the James 1 passage. As it happens, my family and I are memorizing the book of James and that passage was what we memorized last week. It's very helpful for this conversation. But you didn't write out the entire section. Here it is:

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Regarding "desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin." Notice that desire, by itself, is not sin. Nor is temptation. Desire has to be acted upon (conceived) for there to be sin.

3. I listened to the entire Dykstra sermon - it was very good. Thanks for recommending it.

I liked one section in particular (around 14:00) - I typed it out -

"He understood that in his heart there was the potential for adultery ... Because in genuine humility he both knows and acknowledges his own weakness and potential for sin... He takes precautions that he doesn't feed such a heart. "

This sounds like Nick to me. Nick knows his own potential for sin and he is trying not to feed it. He knows his weakness. He's trying not to feed his own heart. If he does feed his own heart, he considers it sinful.

4. I also like Dykstra’s definition of 'fix my gaze': "a fixed and inspection or gaze upon an object, combined with a lascivious imagination."

And then he says "Do you have high standards for what you will allow your eyes to see? A true man of virtue will take precautions in what he allows himself to see."

So let me ask again. Say there is a man who knows his potential for homosexual sin and he is looking at his email and a picture comes up of a man he thinks is good looking. He is tempted to stare or to consider it with a lascivious imagination but he doesn't. Instead he (as fast as possible) refreshes the page so the image is no longer there.

Did he sin?
Notice that “Potential” is Pastor Dykstra’s word, not mine. Do you think having a potential for homosexual sin is sin? Or do you think that “potential” is also “worldly terminology”?

But please answer the question - did he sin in that situation?

lyn said...

Jamsco,

In saying this, "Regarding "desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin." Notice that desire, by itself, is not sin. Nor is temptation. Desire has to be acted upon (conceived) for there to be sin." you must throw out other passages in Scripture that speak of evil in the heart, especially Matthew 5:28 where Jesus states if a man looks at a woman to lust, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. With that said, knowing God's word does not contradict, we must further examine James 1:15, "Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death." Notice, at the conception of lust, sin enters. Sin brings death; the text is teaching that at the moment of conception, sin is formed - it grows and worsens if left unchecked. The end result is death. This shows the cancerous growth of sin, from its moment of conception to its final full blown stage. This text is NOT stating that sin in the thought life is not sin. It is a progressive description of sin.

Here is what Matthew Henry states about this text, " that is, sin being allowed to excite desires in us, it will son ripen those desires into consent, and then it is said to have conceived. The sin truly exists, though it be but in embryo. And, when it has grown it its full size in the mind, it is then brought forth in actual execution. Stop the beginnings of sin therefore, or else all the evils it produces must be wholly charged upon us."

As for the second part of your question, we've already been over that. It is not sinful to admit a person is nice looking, and move on. BUT, that is NOT what Nick Roen has said he's done. His own personal confession is this, that he still lusts for men and that God has NOT taken that from him. If this were only an innocent quick glance, why would he expect God to take that from him?

To have a potential for sin, which we ALL do, is worldly terminology. Roen obviously lusts for men, so he should NOT place himself in any situation where he would be weakened further by that sin. For example, going to a gay bar, or looking at pics of men should never be done by the sinner who lusts for the same sex. However, only those who have been supernaturally born from above will forsake the sin of homosexuality, including the lust in the mind. True believers will HATE their former way of life, they certainly will NOT state they lust after men and then blame God for not removing it from them.

If the thought life were free from the judgment of God, then why would God tell sinners in Isaiah 55:7 to forsake their way as well as their thoughts? Why would Christ teach that the man who lusts in his mind has committed adultery {Matthew 5:28}? Adam Clarke's commentary leaves little doubt about the sins of the mind, "If a man earnestly wish to commit an evil, but cannot, because God puts time, place, and opportunity out of his power, he is fully chargeable with the iniquity of the act, by that God who searches and judges the heart. So, if a man earnestly wish to do some kindness, which it is out of his power to perform, the act is considered as his; because God, in this case, as in that above, takes the will for the deed. If voluntary and deliberate looks and desires make adulterers and adulteresses, how many persons are there whose whole life is one continued crime! whose eyes being full of adultery, they cannot cease from sin, 2Pe_2:14. Many would abhor to commit one external act before the eyes of men, in a temple of stone; and yet they are not afraid to commit a multitude of such acts in the temple of their hearts, and in the sight of God!"




lyn said...

Will God judge the thoughts of man?
"in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ." Romans 2:16
Albert Barnes comments
"For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing,” etc., Mat_10:26; 1Co_4:5. The expression denotes the hidden desires, lusts, passions, and motives of people; the thoughts of the heart, as well as the outward actions of the life. It will be a characteristic of the day of judgment, that all these will he brought out, and receive their appropriate reward."

Here is the confession from Nick Roen, "As long as I can remember, I have experienced exclusive same-sex attraction (SSA). Despite counseling and countless prayers, God has not seen fit to change my orientation." from http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/an-alternative-script-for-same-sex-attraction
Pastor Don Green's response to lusting for the same sex...

The Bible teaches that God looks on hearts, not just behavior.

God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart (1 Samuel 16:7).

It’s rooted in the tenth commandment.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor (Exodus 20:17).

Jesus condemned heart sins like anger and lust.

Read Matthew 5:21-28.

What keeps people from going to heaven?

Read Galatians 5:19-21.

Notice the “things like these.” God condemns promiscuity and sensuality. We make no provision for them.

Read Romans 13:13-14.

This is not unique to homosexuality. Sinful desires provoke God’s wrath, not just sinful deeds. We can’t reduce the sin of homosexuality to homosexual acts.

The desires themselves are sinful.

to be continued...

lyn said...

more from Pastor Green...

2. Sinful Desires Come from Sinful Hearts

A sinful heart produces sinful desires that produce sinful deeds.

Read Mark 7:21-23; James 4:1-2.

We are to be pure from the inside out. We cannot whitewash sinful desires; otherwise we reproduce the spirit of the Pharisees.

Read Luke 11:39-40.

He condemned the Pharisees for making of show of external compliance while inside being full of robbery and wickedness.

God forbids us to want things that are contrary to His will. Homosexual desires and behavior are sinful because they violate God’s created order.

For a man to desire a man as a sexual companion is to sin from the heart against God’s order that a woman be the sole sexual companion of a man, and that in the context of a marriage relationship.

3. But I Didn’t Try to Be this Way!

It is common to hear homosexual stories that say, “I was always this way. I noticed I was different from the youngest age.” I didn’t choose to be this way.

The implication is that therefore I am not responsible for my immoral behavior.

That is the wrong conclusion. The truth is just the opposite. The fact that those desires come so easily simply shows how badly sin has infected the human race.

to be continued...

lyn said...

Read Romans 5:12.

When Adam fell into sin, he brought a whole host of evil upon the human race. We all share in the responsibility for it. We inherited a guilty nature from him, and we are responsible for that. Even more, we add to our own guilt with our own sin.

Why do some people feel same-sex attraction early in life? They were born with sinful hearts. When they act on their sinful desires, they develop sinful habits that gradually take control of them.

It’s the old saying: sow a thought, reap an act. Sow an act, reap a habit. Sow a habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny.

to be continued...

lyn said...

more of Pastor Green's sermon...

The fact that sinful desires come naturally is not unique to homosexuals. Anyone who has raised children understands this.

Even though no one has taught them to do so, children instinctively know how to lie when they get into trouble. They instinctively get angry if they don’t get their way.

No one teaches children to be naughty. They just naturally are naughty. It’s not genetic. They’re born with sinful hearts. No one says that lying and anger should be unrestrained.

The fact that wicked desires come naturally shows how lost we are. Christ must save us because we cannot save ourselves.

Read Jeremiah 13:23, 17:9.

These are different manifestations of the same root problem of sin and our fallen natures. The fact that sin comes naturally to us doesn’t excuse our guilt. It proves our guilt.

The nature of the manifestation of our sin differs from individual to individual. One might struggle with homosexual lust; another with heterosexual lust; another laziness; another gossip.

Paragraph 6.2 and 6.3 of the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 states it like this:

to be continued...

lyn said...

the conclusion of Pastor Green's sermon...

6.2 Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them. For from this, death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.

6.3 They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and their corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

Without being taught to do so, some people will rebel against God’s will for sexuality. When you combine a sinful heart with other issues like early molestation or other environmental factors, you have a recipe for engrained homosexuality even early in life.

Sadly, homosexuals have misunderstood the spiritual significance of their experience. Their childhood desires were not innocent. They manifested a corrupt nature.

When they act on that corrupt nature, sin subtly takes control of their lives.
Sin does not become righteous simply because it comes naturally to us. Homosexuality is sinful. Those who practice or desire it are guilty, even if they did not originally and consciously “choose” to go that route. God will still hold them accountable.

I realize this sounds depressing. But sin is inherently enslaving. It’s shocking to realize that we can be slaves without even knowing it.

Homosexuals are no different than the rest of us. They were born into a condition of slavery.

Read John 8:34.

What is the answer to that enslaved condition?

4. Homosexuals Need the Gospel

The recognition that homosexuality has a hold on you should not lead you to justify it. It should lead you to flee to Christ and cry for mercy. You are enslaved to sin that offends a holy God, and you cannot save yourself from it.

Homosexuals are just like other sinners. They must confess their sin and repent or they will perish.

Read Matthew 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

God will not allow unrepentant homosexuals into heaven.

But there is mercy in the condemnation. Christ calls all sinners—not just homosexuals—to deny themselves and follow Him. He offers eternal life to everyone who believes in Him.

Read Mark 8:35-39.

We gladly point homosexuals to the same Savior that redeemed us from our sins—the Friend of sinners who came to seek and save the lost.

Read Luke 19:10.

Christ washed us from our sins; He can wash, sanctify, and justify every homosexual who humbly comes to Him as well.

Read 1 Corinthians 6:11.

We say without apology that homosexuals must repent of their homosexuality. We say with confidence that Christ will receive you, forgive all your sins, and graciously give eternal life to Him.

Read John 6:37.

When Christ says that, He means it. He will forgive all your sins. He has authority to make that promise because He paid for sin at the cross.

Read 2 Corinthians 5:21.

When you come to Christ, He will give you power to overcome sin. That doesn’t necessarily mean you will be instantly relieved of homosexual temptation.

But He will give you the Holy Spirit to break the power of sin, to cleanse your conscience, and give you hope.

Read Matthew 11:28-30.

Come to Christ. Make today the day of your salvation." Pastor Green

Those whom God saves WILL overcome the perversion of homosexuality, in thought and deed. I am living proof of that.

lyn said...

Jamsco,

I also recommend my latest post from Pastor Green on forbidden desires, where he mentions this is rooted in the tenth commandment. For a better understanding of that commandment, I urge you to read http://pbministries.org/books/pink/Commandments/command_10.htm

jamsco said...

Well, you've been helpful. I'm starting to get a better understanding of what you think. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think that when Jesus says

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

He means that the decision to look at the woman in order to lust is the "evil of the heart", or sin of the mind.

You think that the desire to look at a woman is sinful, even if they don't. And that any person who desires to look at another person with lust is not a Christian, because they still have the evil desire.

Unfortunately, this means that no man is a Christian, because all men desire to look lustfully at someone for most of their lives. Some fight the desire and choose not to, but all men desire to. Well, all men besides eunuchs.

To sum up, this is what I think:
Physical Adultery: Sin
Adultery of the Heart (Decision to lust): Sin
Being a person who has a desire (tendency, potential, attraction) to lust but is choosing not to: Not sinful

And this is what you think:
Physical Adultery: Sin
Adultery of the Heart (Decision to lust): Sin
Being a person who has a desire (tendency, potential, attraction) to lust but is choosing not to: Sinful

Like I say, we'll just have to disagree. But the good news is we only disagree on one of the three.

Regarding all of the notes you put up from Pastor Green and others, I agree with most of it. I just don't think it applies to Nick. And copying and pasting a whole bunch of text from someone else's web page is not really a response. I'd already seen it, in any case.

Lastly, I hope you won't stop listening to Pastor Dykstra's sermons now that you've learned he uses worldly terminology like "potential for sin".

lyn said...

"And this is what you think:
Physical Adultery: Sin
Adultery of the Heart (Decision to lust): Sin
Being a person who has a desire (tendency, potential, attraction) to lust but is choosing not to: Sinful

Let me clarify and state what I actually think,if someone continually lusts, if this is ongoing, then there's a problem. I have shown you this from the word of God in 1 John chapter 3. God's people do not battle the same besetting sins, especially lust. I have backed all I have stated with God's truth. Your problem is not with me, it's with God's truth. You insist one can lust, as long as he/she doesn't 'go there'. Christ says He sets us free from sins' bondage; so, that being said, how can you still struggle with lust and excuse it by stating you don't act on it? Here's the fact of the matter; if lust is present, and if it is continual, you need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

Yes, most men struggle with lust, this is a huge sin among men. The only hope is for the power of the cross to set them free.
What you cannot see that all sin, even in the mind, is a bondage. You are enslaved to sin until Christ frees you. It has been ten years since God saved me; I do NOT struggle with lusting after women, the mere thought is disgusting and repulsive to me. Why? Because the power of the cross has freed me, and the reverence for my God keeps me from even going there. I have an understanding of sin, this given to me by God.
As for Pastor Dykstra, I am listening to one of his sermons now, and recommend to you as well, it's on the depraved mind - http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=422026333

Darrel said...

Jamsco,
"Being a person who has a desire (tendency, potential, attraction) to lust but is choosing not to: Not sinful."
By saying these words, you have condemned yourself. A "desire to lust" is the same thing as saying a "lust to lust", your statement could just as well been written: "a lust to desire."
This is a willful act on your part (and that of NR) to reserve the right to hold onto your "right" to harbor evil desires (lusts) and hide it under the guise of "it's not sin until acted upon". To do so is the very essence of the deceitfulness of sin. "I can secretly hold on to a lust and it will be alright with God because I have not yet acted upon it---REALLY?
What have Christians been commanded to do, hold onto lusts and sins, or repent of them by turning from them permanently? You have yet to provide anything to support your contention from the Scriptures, only your circle-logic which is a tool employed by the wicked one with great success. Either we are to take up our cross daily, or we are allowed to hold onto any old desire (lust) we choose. Either we are to seek holiness by the complete abandonment of ourselves, or we can choose the lusts that we wish to continue to entertain. This is exactly what you have been saying all along and it's scary to hear someone who claims to be saved and yet insists on harboring evil desires and placing his own wickedness above the holy mandate we have received from the Lord Jesus.
"But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, 'Be holy for I am holy'" 1 Peter 1:15&16. In light of this command, would you still insist that you have the right to hold onto some desire/lust and you are clear of guilt and HOLY before God in this matter? If your answer is 'yes' then I hope fear will grip your heart for this is clear evidence that you are yet in your sins, and are still lost and in need of salvation.

When anyone is saved their old sins become IMMEDIATELY repugnant to them and there is no desire to hold on to any vestige of their past. That is part of what it means to repent. May the Lord grant you wisdom in this, the very desire to be able to retain a lust of any kind is, in itself, a sin. Why would one who claims to love God want to hold onto any desire/lust?

lyn said...

Well said Darrel; you've pointed out some of the same things I've pointed to - but they get ignored.

You are right with this circular logic of jamsco's and I have grown tired of it. As far as I am concerned, the exchange is finished. Thank you brother for your scriptural support and firm stance on God's truth- to God be all glory.

Darrel said...

I know we say much the same thing, but like you said it gets ignored. I just keep plugging away, maybe some day it will soak in.

lyn said...

Yes, and I pray God will open the mind to His truth, and the Spirit will bring about a right understanding. When we approach the word of God with pre-conceived ideas, we prove we are not teachable, nor are we humble. This is not pleasing to the Lord. It also allows for much error to be 'let into' the mind, which can lead to much sin..how tragic.

lyn said...

Darrel,

This question is for you, from Jamsco. I did not publish his entire comment because of his accusations.

Hi Darrel - I've been interested in your comments and I'm grateful that you directly responded to mine. Here's my question: I assume you're a heterosexual male. Let's say your at a beach and a girl walks by who you consider to be good looking. Will you not be tempted to look at her in a sinful way? I'm not asking will you look, I'm asking if you will be tempted." from Jamsco


I would only briefly add, how can you be tempted if you do not look? Jamsco, I hope you will read the post I did from A.W. Pink entitled 'you have heard it said'...
You are going to great lengths to justify lust in your mind. You need to repent of your wickedness Jamsco.

lyn said...

Jamsco,

I have not made you look guilty, all anyone has to do to see your agenda is to read through your comments here. You bring guilt upon yourself by what you seek to defend.

lyn said...

"I'm a married man. I have what I would call OSA - opposite sex attraction, by which I mean I'm a heterosexual. I'm attracted to women. That in and of itself is not sinful." from jamsco
It is only NOT sinful if your gazing upon other women does NOT lead to you having sexual thoughts about those women.
also from jamsco -"Nick says he has SSA - he's attracted to men. Again, this isn't sinful in an of itself, but if he has lustful thoughts about men, then this would be sinful. He is not excusing that. He agrees with you that that would be sinful.
I agree with much of what you say here - I just don't think it applies to what Nick is saying.
You ask how I define attraction. How about this for an example: Let's say A heterosexual man is reading his email and an advertisement comes up with a picture of a woman on it. It takes a man about a tenth of a second to think "She's pretty". That's "attraction". And then the man has a choice. He can focus on her and dwell on her. That's "Lust". Or he can choose to immediately refresh the page or close the window so the image of the lady is no longer there. That's what God wants us to do." - various comments from jamsco

Those are comments from Jamsco, who insists it is harmless to look at someone and think they are attractive; I agree. However, that was NOT the topic of this post - here is what Nick Roen actually states in one of his posts ----- "As long as I can remember, I have experienced exclusive same-sex attraction (SSA). Despite counseling and countless prayers, God has not seen fit to change my orientation." from http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/an-alternative-script-for-same-sex-attraction
Same sex attraction is NOT glancing at someone and thinking they are nice looking. How do we know this? Because homosexuality stems from lust, as I have repeatedly shown in many posts on this blog. IF Nick Roen were referring to a mere quick glance, then why would he say God has not removed his 'attraction' from him? God does not condemn us for complimenting one another - BUT, that's not what we are talking about here. Lusting in the mind is having any type of thought about a person that is sexual, and THAT is what Roen means. Obviously, Pastor Green agrees, for he posted on facebook a response to Nick Roen and 'same sex attraction'. What Nick is really doing is lusting for sex with men, but he glosses over it by calling it 'same sex attraction'. I know what game Nick is playing, I played that same game for nearly 15 years. By God's grace and power, I no longer am enslaved to sexual lust.
Instead of the circular argument jamsco, this is what you need to address - Nick's own admittance that he is attracted to men and that God has not taken it. Again, it bears repeating, if Nick's attraction were only thinking men are nice looking, then why would he expect God to take that from him? After all, it isn't 'sinful' to merely find someone attractive is it? That's your argument, now explain why Nick would expect God to keep him from finding a man nice looking.

Is the face of a woman all you look at jamsco? Do you look NO further than the face, keeping your eyes from going below the neck? Do you look at women in bikinis? What is it about other women that you find attractive? How much time do you spend looking at other women and admiring their beauty?

lyn said...

One last question jamsco, why would Nick go through 'counseling and countless prayers' if he only looked at men and thought they were cute?

Darrel said...

Jamsco,
Why do you seek to justify yourself by comparing yourself to others? If I answer 'yes' then you will say 'I told you so' and if I say 'no' you will likely believe me to be a liar and a deceiver of myself just as you deceive yourself. Either way it lets you off the hook and lessen your responsibility to God for your own thoughts and actions (if only in your mind). Why do you seek to trap me as the Pharisees often tried with Lord Jesus? Answer the question for yourself and know that you are being watched by the same Lord Jesus whom you claim to serve. If you were half as interested in humbling yourself before the Lord as you are in absolving Nick Roen and Jamsco from their sins in this matter we would have ended this conversation a few days ago with Jamsco confessing his own sin to the Lord Jesus and repenting of the same. It is immaterial if you ever let me and Lyn know if you do repent, but the evidence that you have not is clear from your continued attempts to get either or both of us to see "the error of our ways" and say that you and Nick were right all along---and that ain't gonna happen. It would be better for you to think like David who said: "I will set nothing wicked before my eyes; I hate the work of those who fall way; it shall not cling to me. A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will not know wickedness" Psa. 101:3&4.

You will not find a better work on this subject that the one Lyn posted by AW Pink. If your heart is so steeped in hardness that the truth of all that has been said has still been unable to soak in then you are in far greater trouble than you can imagine. The Spirit will not always strive with you so if you want to continue to believe the nonsense that have written here then go ahead. But know that such thoughts and rebellious attitudes will never be accepted by the Judge of all the earth who will judge you, Jamsco.

jamsco said...

Darrel,

You say -
If I answer 'yes' then you will say 'I told you so' and if I say 'no' you will likely believe me to be a liar and a deceiver of myself just as you deceive yourself.

No, I was prepared to believe you if you said ‘no’. Just to make it clear, there would have been no real shame for you to say Yes because I think it is true for nearly all Christian men. Ask them.

Regarding AW Pink, if Lyn had allowed my previous comment, you would have seen that I have read his writings and have found them useful. I also showed a quote from him that makes me think that he would have been on my side in this discussion.

Psa. 101:3&4 is excellent – and from what I read from Nick, it looks like he’s trying to live in the same way as David expresses himself in those verses.

Here's my main statement: "A person is not tempted to do a sin unless they have a desire to do it. I don't think it is a sin to be tempted to sin. I think it's only a sin if you give into the temptation." I think most of what I have said can be boiled down to that statement.

If you (either Lyn or Darrel) disagree with this statement, I would suggest you take it to a strong, wise Christian who you trust and ask them if they disagree with it. If they have more time, I'd suggest you let them look at all of these comments. I have a feeling they won't find me as evil as you find me.

lyn said...

jamsco,

search this blog on homosexuality, you will find many posts that use God's word to define what homosexuality is.

You have yet to answer my question concerning Nick's lusting after men, so one last time I will present it again...


- here is what Nick Roen actually states in one of his posts ----- "As long as I can remember, I have experienced exclusive same-sex attraction (SSA). Despite counseling and countless prayers, God has not seen fit to change my orientation." from http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/an-alternative-script-for-same-sex-attraction

- Nick's own admittance that he is attracted to men and that God has not taken it. Again, it bears repeating, if Nick's attraction were only thinking men are nice looking, then why would he expect God to take that from him? After all, it isn't 'sinful' to merely find someone attractive is it? That's your argument, now explain why Nick would expect God to keep him from finding a man nice looking.

Is the face of a woman all you look at jamsco? Do you look NO further than the face, keeping your eyes from going below the neck? Do you look at women in bikinis? What is it about other women that you find attractive? How much time do you spend looking at other women and admiring their beauty?

One last question jamsco, why would Nick go through 'counseling and countless prayers' if he only looked at men and thought they were cute?


jamsco said...

Hi Lyn,

Is it possible you missed one of my comments? Last night I posted two comments. The one you posted was the second. Did you not see the first one? Or maybe it didn’t go through?

Or maybe you saw my comment, but it’s still not answering your question. If that’s the case, please let me know and I’ll try again.

But here’s the (slightly edited) comment that I sent yesterday.

I played that same game for nearly 15 years. By God's grace and power, I no longer am enslaved to sexual lust.

As I say, I'm very glad this is true. I praise God for this.

Nick's own admittance that he is attracted to men and that God has not taken it. Again, it bears repeating, if Nick's attraction were only thinking men are nice looking, then why would he expect God to take that from him? After all, it isn't 'sinful' to merely find someone attractive is it?

It does bear repeating. It's a very good question and if you don't know the answer it explains a little of why you are confused and bothered by what I'm saying. I assumed you knew the answer because of your fifteen year experience. The reason he's asking God to change him is this - if he were attracted to women (and not men), he could get involved in a romantic relationship. As it is, he feels (correctly) that he cannot get into a romantic relationship without sinning. As it stands right now he will be alone (at least from a romantic perspective) for the rest of his life. That's why he's praying for God to change him.

Is the face of a woman all you look at jamsco? Do you look NO further than the face, keeping your eyes from going below the neck? Do you look at women in bikinis? What is it about other women that you find attractive? How much time do you spend looking at other women and admiring their beauty?

You've asked me several personal questions here and the long and the short of them is - have I lived my life sinless in this respect - the answer is no. I have asked forgiveness for this, along with other kinds of sins that I have committed.

Regarding the time a male should admire a women's body - the answer is very short, almost non-existent - as soon as he's realizing he's doing it, he should stop. Anything beyond this is his choice and it's the choice to continue which is the sinful part.

But this one of the many areas where you, Darrel and I agree on. We all agree that any choices to gaze at a woman (or a man) to lust is sin. What we disagree on is: is it sinful to be a person who is tempted to lust? Isn’t that what we disagree on?

Now will you answer my question? Do you agree with Mr. Pink when he says a Christian has "indwelling sin seeking to reign," and "lusts demanding obedience."

lyn said...

" The reason he's asking God to change him is this - if he were attracted to women (and not men), he could get involved in a romantic relationship. As it is, he feels (correctly) that he cannot get into a romantic relationship without sinning. As it stands right now he will be alone (at least from a romantic perspective) for the rest of his life. That's why he's praying for God to change him." So, you claim to know for FACT that Nick only seeks to lust for women? Wow, just wow!!! You have nicely covered over the sin of lust with some interesting analogy, albeit wrong. You do NOT have a clue about homosexuality do you? How could you, unless that same lust Nick has is seeded in your heart? According to your analogy, Nick wants to stop lusting after men and start lusting after women...nice try but I am not buying it. For starters,those who lust for the same sex do NOT want the opposite sex at all! It is disgusting to them.

You have asked forgiveness for your lusting for women...do you continue in this lust? Is it ongoing?

You also say this about men lusting, "as soon as he's realizing he's doing it, he should stop." So, you are trusting your own heart to tell you when to stop, when does he realize he's doing it? What are the key signs? I would think by the time he realizes it, he's already lusted!


You also ask " What we disagree on is: is it sinful to be a person who is tempted to lust? Isn’t that what we disagree on?" What does the Bible say jamso? What have Darrel and I been stating? What does Christ teach in Matthew 5:28?
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Isn't Christ saying if you lust after women in your thoughts, you have sinned? Again, we've already shown from God's word lusting in the thought life is sin - it only remains for God to take His truth and reveal it to your 'inner man'.

Do I agree with Pink? We do battle sin, and will do so until we die. Sin is indwelt in our flesh, this we wrestle. However, Pink is not specifying a particular sin; we should never continue to wrestle with sexual sin! Look at King David, he sinned once with Bathsheba, and never again did he lust for another man's wife and act on that. The same besetting sins should not continue to enslave us, especially those that are sexual. Do not take grace in vain. Remember the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 6, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

As for 'lusts demanding obedience', again, lust comes in many forms. Some lust after money, power, fame, material possessions...these we battle and put to death daily. Mortifying sin is a command --

Romans 8:13- "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
Colossians 3:5- "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry."
We are commanded to put to death sin, starting with 'fornication', which means " ) illicit sexual intercourse -1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc." {Thayer's Greek Def.} Uncleanness is also a reference to sex, as indicated by John Gill's commentary, "of every sort, all other impure actions, as adultery, incest, sodomy, and every other unnatural lust; all which should be abstained from, and never committed by those who profess to be alive unto God."

to be continued...

lyn said...

Inordinate affection refers to ' affection, lust.' {from Strongs}. Here is commentary from Albert Barnes on this sin, " Inordinate affection - πάθος pathos. Rendered in Rom_1:26, “vile affections;” see the notes at that verse. In 1Th_4:5, the word is rendered “lust” - which is its meaning here.

We'll stop there...the command is to 'put to death', if you kill sin how can you still wrestle with it? The Bible clearly states we must put to death sexual sin, from it's earliest form - lust. There simply is no excuse for Nick Roen to lust after anybody, nor is there an excuse for you to lust after women. If you continue to lust after women jamsco, you are sinning against God. There is NO way of getting around that, hard as you try. The word of God clearly states such; Christ points to your sin in Matthew 5:28. Do NOT ignore His warning; STOP lusting and cry out for mercy. STOP looking at other women and fantasizing about them!! You are in sin jamsco.

lyn said...

You go so far as to defend the lust of a homosexual in order to justify your own sin, this is just dreadful.

You fit what Romans 1:32 speaks of, "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

You are on dangerous ground, you are going to be judged if you continue lusting after women.

lyn said...

jamsco

I will point you to this warning from Pink...

"Christ here made it known that if a man allows himself to gaze upon a woman till his appetites are excited and sexual thoughts are engendered, then the holy Law of God judges him to be guilty of adultery and subject to its curse.
Our Lord here declared that the seventh commandment is broken even by a secret though unexpressed desire. There is, then, such a thing asheart adultery-alas, that this is so rarely made conscience of today. Impure thoughts and wanton imaginations which never issue in the culminating act are breaches of the Divine Law, All lusting after the forbidden object is condemned.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." It is not an involuntary glance which constitutes the sin, but when evil thoughts are thereby prompted by our depraved natures. The first step and degree, then, of this crime is when lust stirs within us. The second stage and degree is when we deliberately approach unto-a feeding of the eye with the sight of the forbidden fruit, where further satisfaction cannot be obtained. Then if this lust be not sternly mortified, the heart swiftly becomes enthralled and the soul is brought into complete bondage to Satan, so that it is fettered by chains which no human power can break. Such was the deplorable condition of those mentioned by the apostle, "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14)."

Heed the warning jamsco, stop excusing your lust and approving of others who do the same. Repent of your sin and seek His mercy.

jamsco said...

Hi Lynn, Thanks for posting that last comment. It’s an interesting debate we have here, don’t you think?

Can I ask you to do something? Can I ask that the next time you reply to my words that you reply to my words, not your re-wording of my words? I've tried (and will keep trying) to do that for your words.

So, you claim to know for FACT that Nick only seeks to lust for women?

First, let me make it clear that anything I say about Nick that is not directly from his posts I am making educated guesses about. I don't know it for certain.

Second, I find it intriguing that you took my statement that Nick wants to have a "romantic relationship" with women and in your mind you translated it to "Nick only seeks to lust for women"

That’s dark. Is that what you think about every man who wants a romantic relationship a woman?

For starters, those who lust for the same sex do NOT want the opposite sex at all!

Exactly. Exactly! That's what he wants God to change about him. He wants to desire to be in a romantic relationship with a woman. Isn’t that a reasonable thing to pray for?

You have asked forgiveness for your lusting for women...do you continue in this lust? Is it ongoing?

Let's get this clear. (1) I agree with you that any person who has any kind of ongoing sin is going to be judged by God. That we are commanded to put to death all kinds of sin. That any person who continues to lust after women sins against God and is on dangerous ground. (2) I will most likely not be giving any more explanation of any kind of sin that I have committed. It would be unwise for me to do this here - a public, wide-open-to-anyone blog. Please notice that I have not expected you or Jerry to do this either (I asked Jerry, but didn't expect him to). Trust me that I have other places where I do confession.

But you can stop condemning me. I have admitted to past sin. You have no idea what my current status is. Judge not. Especially with no evidence.

"You go so far as to defend the lust of a homosexual in order to justify your own sin, this is just dreadful."

This would be dreadful if it was true, but it's not. I am defending Nick (not his lust) in order to help you understand the truth about his situation. Whatever sin I have has nothing to do with this. I think you're thinking "The only reason someone would disagree with me is because he is a sinner" This doesn't follow.

You also say this about men lusting, "as soon as he's realizing he's doing it, he should stop." So, you are trusting your own heart to tell you when to stop, when does he realize he's doing it?

These are really good questions. A Christian should not trust himself to know when he should stop. He should pray to God that He will make it absolutely clear when he is sinning, or when he is about to sin. And reading the Bible to find out what the will of God is is also necessary.

Isn't Christ saying if you lust after women in your thoughts, you have sinned? Again, we've already shown from God's word lusting in the thought life is sin - it only remains for God to take His truth and reveal it to your 'inner man'.

I agree with all of this. What makes you think I don't? I'll repeat. It is a sin to lust. It is a sin to give in to temptation to lust. But a person who was tempted to lust but didn't lust didn't sin. That is all I'm saying.

Do I agree with Pink? We do battle sin, and will do so until we die. Sin is indwelt in our flesh, this we wrestle. However, Pink is not specifying a particular sin; we should never continue to wrestle with sexual sin!

Can you show me in the Bible (or in Pink’s writings for that matter) where it says it's okay to wrestle with one kind of sin and not with another? Can you show me where it says that David never again lusted for another man's wife (or more specifically, that he was never tempted to)?

lyn said...

Jamsco,

you say "Second, I find it intriguing that you took my statement that Nick wants to have a "romantic relationship" with women and in your mind you translated it to "Nick only seeks to lust for women" That’s dark. Is that what you think about every man who wants a romantic relationship a woman?"

What you don't get is the depravity of homosexuality. Nick lusts for men - he states God hasn't removed it from him, so he still lusts. The Bible clearly teaches the sinner has a depraved mind, which means 'useless'. Homosexuals do not look at the same sex with the intent of just starting a meaningful relationship. This is what you simply don't comprehend. They only seek to fulfill their lust...to be blunt - they just want to have sex with someone.

Nick lusts, he blames God for his continuing on in it, and excuses himself by doing so. That is the LAST TIME I will discuss any of this with you.

Then, you claim "This would be dreadful if it was true, but it's not. I am defending Nick (not his lust) in order to help you understand the truth about his situation." So, your view is truth? Again, you claim to KNOW FOR FACT that Nick is seeking for God to transform his 'desire for men' to that of a 'desire for women"?
But before you made that statement, you said this, "First, let me make it clear that anything I say about Nick that is not directly from his posts I am making educated guesses about. I don't know it for certain."

So, which is it jamsco? You say you're helping me to understand the truth about Nick's situation,then you turn around and say you are making an educated guess! What you are doing is giving your OPINION...and that's all it is!
You are a liar jamsco. You do NOT know how homosexuals think, but I'll give you a clue. Like you, they lust. Like you, they look at another human being as someone to fulfill their lust with, even if it's simply in the mind.
As for your last claim, I NEVER said it was okay to wrestle with only one kind of sin; what I DID say was it should NOT be an ongoing battle.


Your done here jamsco- your continual play on words, your merry-go-round opinionated comments are nothing more than your attempt to justify sin, the sin of YOU lusting for women, fantasizing about them in your mind! You have given NO biblical support to say it is okay to think about women in a sexual way, you change your mind, you claim to know what Nick desires in his heart and you re-define lust. You cherry-pick what sin you will forsake and what ones you'll cleave to and make continual excuses for.

If you continue lusting after women, God commands you to repent. If you battle the SAME besetting sin, God commands you to repent.

Good bye jamsco - NO further comments from you will be published, nor will they be read. They will be immediately deleted. I have wasted enough time on your fleshly, opinion-based merry-go-round. I have broken my own rules for commenting by allowing you to comment so many times with no scriptural support. Enough is enough.

Darrel said...

A final two cents worth:
Jamsco has presented no Scriptural basis for his fantasy doctrines, his fixation with persuading either or both of us is beyond inordinate, and the delusion he is so happy to reside in will be his final undoing. His real focus is to confuse, not to win an argument (who knows the reward he seeks if he declares himself the victor) and to call into question the veracity and character of the Lord Jesus along with the lasting effects that genuine salvation has on a true believer. Bottom line: only the unregenerate continually seek to excuse their sin.

lyn said...

Well stated Darrel. I should never have allowed him to comment as long as I did; it will NOT happen again. His opinion-based rants do not edify, he is being used by Satan to try and bring about confusion and ultimately claim 'did God really say?'
He contradicts himself in his relentless attempts to justify lusting in the mind. How truly amazing the lengths sinners will go to to justify their cherished, treasured sin. How terrifying will it be to fall into the hands of the living God because of the love of sin. An unregenerate heart will ALWAYS excuse sin, it will ALWAYS twist God's word. Sadly, we see this everywhere as many profess Christ with their lips but their hearts are far, far from Him!

jamsco said...

Lyn, I think you’re being a little hard on yourself. Every time you allowed one of my comments to be visible you showed grace and patience. I appreciated it. And looking at your guidelines for comments, I don’t think you broke your own rules.

I understand that you’re not going to allow this comment, but if there’s a way to let Darrel know – you can tell him that I agree with him on this: My fixation with persuading either or both of you was indeed “beyond inordinate”. Maybe it’s something I should work on. And Darrel’s goal of defending “the veracity and character of the Lord Jesus along with the lasting effects that genuine salvation has on a true believer” is commendable.

I don’t feel any ill will towards either of you.

And just so you don’t think I was trying to deceive you (I don’t want anyone to think I’m a liar) I’ll just say that all I had previously stated about Nick was based on what I had read in his posts. It was only the part about him wanting to desire a romantic relationship with women that I was guessing about. But doesn’t that make sense? I would think that any homosexual who has any understanding of God and the natural way of things (even if they aren’t Christians) might wish to be heterosexual.

From what I can see, you have a good blog here, Lyn. You point out good passages from old preachers, you remind Christians of what they should be reminded of, and you are regularly pointing people back to God’s word. Your last post about the abortion industry was enlightening.

Do keep praying for Nick. What you want for him is what I want for him – that God will take him out of homosexuality completely. I believe he wants this for himself. And keep praying for me. I’ll pray for you.

lyn said...

Thank you jamsco, I will pray for Nick, and for you as well. Please, do pray for me...and thank you. May God receive any and all glory for however He sees fit to use this blog.